Disaster?
#1
After removing the water pump on  my Velox E for rebuild I discovered the core plug behind it weeping. My efforts to remove it have only resulted in me punching a hole into number 1 cylinder, meaning an engine removal and some remedial action to fix. Has anyone ever done something as stupid? It is also a warning that there is precious little room behind there and the cylinder wall and the cylinder wall is mighty thin. Car off road for a long time. Still, it means I will have a clean tidy engine compartment and engine that I would not have otherwise had. You have to look on the positive side, don't you? Blush
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#2
Bill, it's always a learning curve.
I have had problems with leaking frost plugs (do you call them Welsh plugs?) and of course the offending little b---er is always the one on the end of the engine up against the bulk head.
Now don't look at major surgery if you don't have to. There are some miracle water additives now available that don't block the radiator but will seal cracks in the head or leaking frost plugs. Try them, they do work.
One of my G model cars had a massive hole punched into the bulkhead just so someone could reach directly to the frost plug to replace it. Yes the carpet covered the hole but man, what brutal surgery to avoid engine removal!! They would have benefited from a modern water additive.
Mike
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#3
Mike,

If I knew then what I know now I would have put a disc over the plug and sealed it with JB weld. The plug has gone porous. The problem is I can see number 1 piston through the block with a 3mm hole in it. Awaiting specialist ideas of fix. Bill
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#4
(10/07/2017, 07:13 AM)bill94d Wrote: Mike,

If I knew then what I know now I would  have put a disc over the plug and sealed it with JB weld. The plug has gone porous. The problem is I can see number 1 piston through the block with a 3mm hole in it. Awaiting specialist ideas of fix. Bill

Seen this before - in darker countries!

The only way to fix a core plug leakage is to replace it - end of!
Putting sealant on the leak/hole is only delaying the inevitable, if it blows when your motoring and you don't notice/smell the overheat, your in a bigger mess.
Enough of stating the obvious.

Depending on the thickness of your cylinder wall and the size of the hole.
With piston at BDC and sealed at this position with grease (so swarf does not get down the sides of piston) thorughly clean around area of hole on water jacket side.
Tap a thread onto the hole and fit a mild steel grub screw (do not use stainless, coef. is different). Use a fine thread like UNF.
The tapping of the hole has to be tapered - as in a No.1 tap so the screw tightens up when being fitted (using a high strength Loctite medium) Do not over tighten!
With great care the excess of the grub screw on the cylinder wall can then be ground away. Make sure there is no protrusion of the screw past the vertical of the wall - use a small straight edge vertically round the wall. If you don't get this right you will break the rings! And don't get it too hot.

Next calculate the distance from the cylinder wall in the water jacket to the back of a core plug when fitted.
This is were epoxy sealants like 'JB weld' can be used.
Apply epoxy on a very clean area around and over screw, let it set for 24 hours.
When you are ready to fit the core plug in position - this is presuming you have really cleaned the core plug seating area - apply some Polyurethane sealant over the epoxy to a depth relating to your core plug distance plus 1/8th inch.
Allow PU to partly cure (3-5 hours?) then fit core plug.
With the excess PU applied on the epoxy to back of core plug you will be putting pressure on the sealed area.
The grub screw mainly seals the cylinder wall for compression/vacuum.

Hope this helps.
Alternative is new sleeve.


As mentioned, great care must be used in the fitting/grinding of grub screw.
If your not mechanically minded or used to metalwork, get someone who is to do the job!
Regards.
Chas.

A pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. A optimist sees opportunity in every difficulty.
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#5
(11/07/2017, 10:51 AM)Chas Wrote:
(10/07/2017, 07:13 AM)bill94d Wrote: Mike,

If I knew then what I know now I would  have put a disc over the plug and sealed it with JB weld. The plug has gone porous. The problem is I can see number 1 piston through the block with a 3mm hole in it. Awaiting specialist ideas of fix. Bill

Seen this before - in darker countries!

The only way to fix a core plug leakage is to replace it - end of!
Putting sealant on the leak/hole is only delaying the inevitable, if it blows when your motoring and you don't notice/smell the overheat, your in a bigger mess.
Enough of stating the obvious.

Depending on the thickness of your cylinder wall and the size of the hole.
With piston at BDC and sealed at this position with grease (so swarf does not get down the sides of piston) thorughly clean around area of hole on water jacket side.
Tap a thread onto the hole and fit a mild steel grub screw (do not use stainless, coef. is different). Use a fine thread like UNF.
The tapping of the hole has to be tapered - as in a No.1 tap so the screw tightens up when being fitted (using a high strength Loctite medium) Do not over tighten!
With great care the excess of the grub screw on the cylinder wall can then be ground away. Make sure there is no protrusion of the screw past the vertical of the wall - use a small straight edge vertically round the wall. If you don't get this right you will break the rings! And don't get it too hot.

Next calculate the distance from the cylinder wall in the water jacket to the back of a core plug when fitted.
This is were epoxy sealants like 'JB weld' can be used.
Apply epoxy on a very clean area around and over screw, let it set for 24 hours.
When you are ready to fit the core plug in position - this is presuming you have really cleaned the core plug seating area - apply some Polyurethane sealant over the epoxy to a depth relating to your core plug distance plus 1/8th inch.
Allow PU to partly cure (3-5 hours?) then fit core plug.
With the excess PU applied on the epoxy to back of core plug you will be putting pressure on the sealed area.
The grub screw mainly seals the cylinder wall for compression/vacuum.

Hope this helps.
Alternative is new sleeve.


As mentioned, great care must be used in the fitting/grinding of grub screw.
If your not mechanically minded or used to metalwork, get someone who is to do the job!
Many thanks Chas. The first thing to do is to get the engine out, and that has been delayed by me breaking my wrist! Once out I am reliably informed it can be welded and honed, since it is not porous and has been drilled through. Your thoughts are along the same lines though. Failing that, the manual says the cylinder can be bored to +60 thou. I can get this done and put a sleeve in and use the original piston. A pain ,BUT, I can renew the clutch, main bearings, big end shells, polish the crank and re-gasket the bottom end and give it a nice coat of paint. I can also clean 60 years of grime off the suspension and steering and tidy up the engine bay. Yes it was a silly thing to do but I am determined to see a benefit from the time and trouble and cost of it all. I will pass your suggestion on  to my local engineering company and see what they say. Any other thoughts welcome. I don't feel as bad now as I did when I could see the piston moving up and down for the first time from outside the engine. I felt sick at the thought of trying to find a new block. Don't think that is required. Grateful for small mercies. Bill
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#6
Photo 
Chas,

This is the mess I am dealing with. In deepest darkest Africa you could do your fix without getting the engine out but I have to shift the core plug and that is not easy as you will be able to see from the mess I have made of it already. Very practicable solution though. Regards,  Bill
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#7
   

Hopefully you can see the mess.
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#8
Welding and honing is a way out of it, but there are all sorts of nasty things that bite you in the rear if you do not have the right gear and consumables.
Without going into boring details;
For instance, if you use a nickel iron rod to weld the hole, when it comes to honing it will break the tooling due to the carbon mixture within the rod making it a very hard weld.
The only type of rod would be a pure nickel rod which does not create hardness but is very expensive.
Then at the end of the day, you still only have a repair as opposed to a rebuild. And that repair will be in the back of your mind all the time.

As you mentioned above what you intend to do by removing the engine, at least you will have reliable unit that is nice and clean, and you'll learn a bit more about the units your working on.

I personally would have the block re-sleeved on that cylinder(as opposed to welding), plus the rest as you mentioned.
It's the best way.

After writing this and posting it - your photo came up.

Holy frigging Moses!

Get the engine out and fix it Bill !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Regards.
Chas.

A pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. A optimist sees opportunity in every difficulty.
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#9
(11/07/2017, 04:56 PM)bill94d Wrote: Hopefully you can see the mess.

Looks like bloody star wars!

Don't worry though, we have all done silly things.
But admitting and advertising it so others can learn -  takes balls.
Regards.
Chas.

A pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. A optimist sees opportunity in every difficulty.
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#10
Opportunity in every difficulty. OK? Cant get that plug out without the donk out of the car. Watch this space.
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